Civil Dialogue with Christian

Often trying to have a conversation with a person of a different worldview can be a frustrating experience.  A bit like this:

Sometimes things are a little better, but extreme caution is needed or someone gets hurt:

I gave up debating on Hubpages' religious forums, because it was often like the hippos trying to knock each other's teeth out.  I decided to start this blog instead to give my opinion and invite dialogue.

I was hesitant when I left a comment on Aguasilver's hub on abortion.  Previously, I'd been like the cat that got its nose pricked by the hedgehog.  I remembered Agua as one of the most outspoken (and I thought irritating) christians on the forums.  To my surprise, we had a productive dialogue about sensitive issues that usually have claws out and prickles flying.

I've edited out unnecessary parts to shorten (was over 2,500 words!) and added some links.  Agua's comments are in italics.

Did you end up having to abort the baby from the ectopic pregnancy?

Unfortunately yes we did lose that child, though the baby was non-viable as it was outside the womb.That's what ectopic means.

Technically, terminating ectopic pregnancies is still an abortion. That's why the issue of abortion is not black & white. I don't agree with people that have multiple abortions because they are too slack to prevent the pregnancy in first place. But I do see there are cases where people have their pregnancies terminated (eg ectopic), and they don't need to be judged for it.

Then we agree, I recognise that there are certain circumstances when we have to kill to protect the greater good, but we should never kill for convenience. Let me state that my objections to the killing of viable babies is NOT a religious conviction, i.e. it is not because any doctrine tells me all abortion is wrong, it is from personal experience and much thought about the issue. There are scriptural verses that support the anti abortion lobby, but using them against frightened and confused mothers is not their intention. Such life and death decisions have no place in politics or doctrinal debate.

Seems we agree on this issue, clarified in your replies, although I thought your religious convictions seemed to come thru very strongly in this hub. I don't like any killing for convenience. As a child, I hated how the neighbour drowned kittens because they couldn't bothered getting their cats desexed.  I agree that this is an issue that is not black-and-white and should stay out of politics & religious debate.

Glad we have some common ground! I guess my religious nature would come though in most things I do, or at least I hope it does! - but what I mean is this is not a subject that I would think to try and preach about to non believers, the subject is too emotive and any decisions taken need to be an evaluated response, not a reaction, no matter which way that reaction shaped the issue.

I don't like how animals are killed for food, yet I eat meat. Animals eat each other too.  I think there's several topics that are not black and white. eg intersex

People born with physical intersex confusions would be a different matter, not sure where we go with that one, which is why I leave it to you!Scripturally the bible tells us we are born male or female, but makes no distinction as to what degrees we may lean towards that designation.

I've been researching the topic of intersex (biologically in-between male & female).  I've written a blog post - the emphasis is on the stigma of labels.

Hi.... Just read your blog, interesting.

I've just written an Intersex hub - thought I may as well, since researched it.

Now our brains are very complicated things, and personally I think we (as a society) need to recognise that 'different' is not always 'disabled', but does always need special attention, in order to harness the particularly unique qualities that some 'different' folk happen to have.People of 'different' brain powers frighten 'normal' society, because they tend not to fit into boxes that are recognisable and safe.Hope that explains where I am coming from a bit more!

Yep, people seem to fear and despise minorities (ethnicities, disabilities, autism, atheism etc)

Perhaps because minorities are now the most vociferous and also in our politically correct world the most able to influence the majority, we seemingly bend over backwards to empower, unreasonably in my opinion, anybody who plays the minority card, and we live in a weird world where the 'rights' of the majority are often subjugated to the 'rights' of the minority.

Perhaps the minorities are vociferous because they are tired of being made invisible and being despised for no good reason. Take intersex people - they are considered by society to be defective and typically have surgery in infancy to align themselves with society's opinion of what their genitals should look like - a penis considered too small is removed and then they are raised as a girl with secrets and shame regarding the biology they were born with.

I can accept that minorities are 'tired of being made invisible and being despised for no good reason' but I am afraid that is life, always has been and unless we legislate in a totally controlled society (fascist/communist state) always will be...No matter how much folk may desire a perfect world where everyone is treated fairly and equally, reality tells me that with nearly 7 billion folk walking the earth, anyone who stands out for better or worse is going to be marginalised by society at large. Anyhow, we went a bit of topic there, which being that my opinion is that unborn babies who are terminated for convenience are probably the most abused 'minority' and I think we should give the unborn some right to life....even if they are going to be different and persecuted.

'I'm afraid that is life, always has been' - do we concede defeat, or do we educate to get rid of deeply held stigma based on ignorance?  I don't think it's too much off-topic - all of these topics are about ethics and morals and how we choose to treat human beings and life in general. Where does stigma come from? Deep-rooted beliefs that some people are just no good?  I've enjoyed the civil dialogue, btw. Usually I find your views quite rigid black & white.

I think the chance of educating folk out of ignorance is remote at best, optimists would call me a pessimist, I would say that having studied folk from all levels of society in many countries over a 40 year period, realism is that the masses breed ignorance faster than education can stem it's tide, and that is BEFORE we look at religious zealots of all colours clinging to their self imposed prisons of inerrant but wrong doctrines. Ignorance also comes in well educated people, we need people who, by exposure to reality, have been forced to rearrange their mindset to accommodate the truths they have seen and experienced. Being perfectly honest, most of the folk who form minorities today would have died or been killed even 100 years ago, it's Darwinism at it's finest, survival of the fittest. So we can be proud of the fact that society has (at least in the 'First World') gained a tolerance that we no longer cull those to weak or perceived as defective.

Yes, 'educated' people can be ignorant - I mean educated about these issues. Don't confuse evolution (science) with "Darwinism" (social 'science' - pseudoscience). "Darwinism", a social sciences construct has twisted a few science concepts and created used it for evil purposes.  Is society ever going to sort itself out? I doubt it, but then a lot of things are better than a few hundred or a few thousand years ago, when people would be burnt at the stake for promoting the healing properties of plants, and women were treated as property (and still are in some cultures). Is religion going to fix things? Not if it sticks to unbending 'morals' that continue with hate and stigma because of ancient texts. There's always going to be some nasty part of society - I read an appalling article how a mother killed her baby and ate its brain during a psychotic episode. Religionists might say possessed by the devil. Either way, this kind of horror happens. It happens in all of the animal kingdom. Do you mind if I post our conversation to my blog?

You are welcome to do so, hopefully not as a parody of what a mad fundy looks like, but I leave it to you to decide! Drop me a link!

I'll link it and let you know. Thought it was a productive conversation.

Agreed, it was productive, we exchanged viewpoints, no slanging match, found common ground and (at least from my perspective) I discovered new ground to be covered. Thanks

Don't think we're this cosy, but at least fur and claws are not flying